Buzzword Breakdown: Psychological Safety

Kristen: Welcome to Love and Leadership, the podcast that helps you lead with both your head and your heart, plus a bit of humor. I'm Kristen Brun Sharkey, a leadership coach and facilitator.

Mike: And I'm Mike Sharkey, a senior living and hospitality executive. We're a couple of leadership nerds who also happen to be a couple.

Kristen: Join us each week as we share our unfiltered opinions, break down influential books, and interview inspiring guests.

Mike: Whether you're a seasoned executive or a rising star, we're here to help you level up your leadership game and amplify your impact.

Kristen: \ Hello and welcome back to Love and Leadership. I'm Kristen. 

Mike: And

I'm Mike.

Kristen: And today we are doing the first of our new Buzzword Breakdown 

Mike: Ooh, buzzword breakdown.

Is that a new episode flavor?

Kristen: Why yes, it is. Mike. 

Mike: Mike.

Oh, I like that flavor.

Kristen: We actually teased this ~if you, ~if you caught our workplace buzz words episode a few weeks ago. We talked about 

Mike: This is like the pistachio of Love and Leadership,

Kristen: The pistachio. It's

Mike: Delicious. But you don't have it every day. Maybe you do. I don't know.

Pistachio ice cream. So good.

Kristen: I mean, I agree.~ Um, ~I don't know about the analogy, but I agree with pistachios being a thing.

Yeah.

Mike: Do you have any ice cream?

Kristen: No

Mike: No. Certainly we don't have pistachio.

Kristen: We do not have any pistachio

Mike: Oh, maybe I'll make some. 

Kristen: ~So,~

~um, ~Anybody have

Mike: a,~ uh,~ a robo, no. What is it? ~Uh, ~the,~ uh,~ Paco jet that they'd like to donate to Love and Leadership, we will take you up on that.~ Um, ~Used is fine. I don't need a new one. The Paco Jet.

Kristen: The Paco jet, is that ~the, ~the restaurant one?

Mike: Yeah, it's like 5K. Oh, I showed

Kristen: Oh, only that. Yeah, I think

Mike: Like a jet engine that where you can make ice cream through a frozen solid rather than using a liquid and freezing it as you stir it.

Kristen: Sounds like something we absolutely need.

Mike: Oh, I need one. can do such. The Paco jet is Yeah. Chef's kiss of the ~uh, ~kitchen equipment. So I had a friend who staged at Noma, and ~you know, ~Noma, despite being like the best restaurant in the world, they only had one. So like he, he said, ~you know, ~during prep, like the the pastry chef would have to like go upstairs to get it, and he, every, he'd see her carrying it downstairs to make ~her, ~her desserts and the, ~you know, ~so even NOMA only had one.

But if you wanna donate one, please send it to love leadership.com at,~ uh,~ heart

Kristen: Let Love and leadership Pod,

Mike: pod sorry

Kristen: dot

Mike: Harvard Square. Okay.

If you don't get that reference. All right. I was trying not to, uh ~ . ~go on any tangents?

Kristen: Yeah, you, you lasted like. I five seconds.

Mike: rough. Well, it's been a long day. I've had a lot of mushroom coffee.

Kristen: Well, okay, so explaining this format briefly. So the idea of this is to take some of the common like buzzwords and phrases we hear in leadership and or just ~kind of ~assume that you know what they mean at this point and actually break them down.

~Um, ~This was kind of inspired by,~ um,~ before even like explainer videos were a thing. ~I, I used to, I mean, ~I worked in ad tech for a long time and Digiday was a big publication and they had this whole series. They still think they still do, but it's like WTF is. And then whatever concept it is, complicated ad tech ~con, con like~ concept it is. ~Um, ~so we're gonna, we're gonna do that with some leadership terms. ~So, um, ~theoretically these will be shorter, but I'm sorry. Oh, no,

Mike: I'm trying to get to, I'm trying to watch Andor at this point, but yeah, I'm a little,

Kristen: It's another Tuesday night recording. What can we do

Mike: We're really on, on top of

Kristen: And, Andor releases three episodes of the time. So it's ~like, ~it's a lot.

Mike: God, it's so good. Is anybody watching it?

Kristen: Respond in the 

Mike: Respond in the comments,

Kristen: Or message Mike on LinkedIn.

Mike: Message Mike

Kristen: on LinkedIn.

Mike: Put it in the package with the paco jet that you're sending me. Uhhuh. Let me know what you're, what you think.

Kristen: Mm-hmm.

~Um, ~But yeah,~ we're,~ we're starting with kind of a, it's a fairly meaty one actually.

~Um, ~But we are starting ~with the, ~with the phrase psychological safety, which I feel like is something we have referenced a lot on this podcast without really explaining. So that's which is common in leadership publication.

So,~ um, ~Mike, I'd love to know before you, without ~like ~reading the notes,

Mike: I'm not even on the notes. Great. ~I'm, ~I'm sending you a picture of vegan pistachio ice cream.

Kristen: Oh my God.

Mike: Okay. You can get it from, we can get it delivered from Sprouts like today.

Kristen: Oh my God.

Mike: I'm not even hungry, but, oh, it sounds so good. Okay. I won't read the notes. What do you wanna know? ~I, ~I guess I feel psychologically safe to,

Kristen: W what do you think of as like psychological safety?

Mike: Well, I think psychological, without reading the notes, without having any erudition on this, I would say psychological safety is ~the, the, ~the feeling that you're not going to be fired,~ um,~ based on ~like, you know~ what's going on today? Or something where ~you, ~you maybe feel confident to, ~you know, ~posit ideas or to take risks or you feel comfortable enough with the team where you're not always in ~kind of ~a fight or flight mode where you feel like, ~you know, ~safe to ~kind of ~at least be somewhat of yourself. ~You know, ~You probably will always have a work self and a home self, but ~like, you know, ~you're not, ~uh.~

You like walking on eggshells the whole 

Kristen: Mm-hmm. 

Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah. I think ~that's, ~that's generally,~ well,~ a good summary. I would say job security is probably not something that's necessarily included within it.

~Um. ~Yeah, but ~it's more~ so, so psychological safety was coined by Harvard Business School Professor Amy Edmondson, 1999. She's brilliant. She's a good LinkedIn follow. ~Um, ~And her definition is a belief that one will not be punished or humiliated for speaking up with ideas, questions, concerns or mistakes, and that the team is safe for interpersonal risk taking. ~And.~

~Hmm. What,~

Mike: But you're, you might be fired. ~I don't, ~I don't know.

Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah. I mean, I think that's like, you're, I think it's a belief you're not gonna get fired for like, speaking up respectfully,

Mike: respectfully. Oh, okay. All

Kristen: ~and, ~And challenging something. Yeah. ~Um, ~It doesn't mean like your job is safe in general. That's kind of its own thing.

But,~ um,~ but yeah, she first came across this concept she was doing~ um, ~research at hospitals and looking at the connection between errors and teamwork, and she found that the teams that reported better teamwork also reported more errors. And that led her to believe, which the research backed up, was ~that ~that was because a team that ~was a, you know, ~had a lot of teamwork that was safer to report mistakes.

So they reported, it's not that they made more mistakes, they were more likely to report them because they felt safe doing so. Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. Ms. Edmondson has 317,000 followers on LinkedIn.

I'm gonna friend her. I'll see if she'll accept my friend. Oh, wait, you need their email address? Oh, well, I guess I'm following you, Ms. Edmondson.

Kristen: She's a good follow. ~Um, ~Yeah,

Mike: ~I,~ I hate the follow without connect though. It's 

Kristen: Yeah. Well they both serve a purpose, I guess.

Mike: I don't know. ~I want, ~I want reciprocal validation.

Kristen: ~um, ~~Because~~ of ~Other things to note about psychological safety in general. So this is a team concept that we're talking about. This is not like an individual trait. So your individual willingness to speak up is a separate thing. This is like how you feel within the context of this team. And she has ~like ~found in research since that it, it matters most in work environments where employees need to use their own discretion.

Like they are, they're making decisions or taking action and or like doing work that's really creative and collaborative. So not necessarily teams where everybody's just doing prescribed work that ~they aren't,~ they don't necessarily have any control over. 

Mike: No. 

Kristen: ~um, ~And there's a ton of benefits. They've been supported both by her original research, and there's also a very well known study that was done at Google called Project Aristotle, where they used their algorithms to look at like 30 different traits and saw like what, what resulted in the ~best performing trait or best, ~best performing teams and psychological safety was the number one predictor of high performing teams. And overall they found that ~like, ~who was on a team mattered a lot less than how the team operated.

Mike: Yeah, that makes sense.

Kristen: And worked together.~ Um, ~And also just ~a, ~a to confirm the importance of this, a McKinsey survey surveyed employees,~ um,~ and found that 89% of respondents believe psychological safety in the workplace is essential.

So it does matter

Mike: McKinsey's famous for like doing million dollar consulting things and telling you to raise revenue and lower costs.~ It's a, it's a, ~It's a frequent meme topic on the business instagram accounts. Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah. Well, you know, big five consulting firms, but they have a lot of interesting research

Mike: I'm sure they do. Yeah. I'm teasing. ~But you know, ~I'm just jealous. 

Kristen: So benefits of psychological safety, so team members feel more engaged and motivated because they feel like their contributions matter. Better decision making because you're, it's leading to you having ~like ~a more diverse range of perspectives being heard and considered. It fosters a culture of continuous learning and improvement because team members feel comfortable sharing their mistakes and learning from them.

And there's overall just positive correlations with higher team performance, innovation, creativity, resilience, learning, and when it's not present, the negative impacts include, like employee wellbeing, like increased stress, burnout, turnover, and also like poor organizational performance in general. ~ So, yeah.~

So we're next we're gonna talk through six of the common myths around psychological safety.

Mike: ~I have to be,~

Kristen: ~Oh my God. Okay. ~

Mike: ~Ugh.~

~Okay, ~

Kristen: ~So~~ myth number one, psychological safety does not equal, or,~

Mike: ~sorry.~

Kristen: So the myth number one is that psychological safety means being nice all the time.

Mike: Hmm.

Kristen: ~Um, ~Candor is different from being nice, and it's actually kind of the opposite. There's a lot of very polite workplaces that don't have psychological safety because there's no candor and people feel silenced by the enforced politeness.

So this is not about being nice.~ Um, ~Obviously respect is an important part of this respect and trust, but,~ um,~ but the candor ~part, ~part of it is what really matters. Myth number two, you can declare psychological safety. ~Um, ~Saying this is a safe space doesn't make it true.

Mike: Makes me think of the office and Michael Scott going, I declare bankruptcy and he is just yelling it. And that's and they're like, no, that,

Kristen: That's not how that works.

Mike: This is a safe space. Not really.

Kristen: Yeah. Thanks

And it's not that you can't say that ~it's like, or, but,~ but you need to back it up, right? Your actions as a leader, like what you do and ~like ~what behavior you to tolerate from other people on the team is gonna ultimately create it, not just saying it.

~Um, ~Myth number three is that it's a luxury, not a necessity. So ~I, I think~ we did a brief overview of research and stuff like why this is effective, but really it's a foundation for effective leadership,~ like,~ especially during change, high stakes decision making and or conflict. ~Especially. Uh, ~Myth number four, psychological safety means getting your way.

And this is ~kind of ~the perspective of an employee. ~Um, ~Also not true because leaders don't need to agree with everybody's input. ~Um, ~And especially if there's problematic behavior happening or people are feeling entitled to getting their way because they were given a space to speak up,~ like, you know, ~you shouldn't tolerate that.

~Um, ~But yeah, it doesn't mean that every opinion is going to lead to that that person getting their way. Just means that you're hearing all of the, and getting all the perspectives out there. And then myth number five, you must always feel comfortable in a psychologically safe environment. Because a lot of people think that you can't say anything that will make people feel uncomfortable, or that's like a violation of psychological safety.

~Um. ~And, ~you know, ~uncomfortable and offensive or, ~you know, there's, ~there's certainly parts of this that cross other boundaries,~ but,~ but the reality is, is that it doesn't necessarily feel comfortable because in reality learning, messing up, making mistakes is usually uncomfortable. Being vulnerable feels risky.

~Um, ~The key is to take risks in a safe environment without those negative interpersonal consequences. So like not being punished for it by your team members or your leader. And then lastly, myth number six is that implementing it requires a top down approach, meaning from like the CEO down. And interestingly, what they found in the research is ~like, ~yes, ideally everybody in your organization is doing this from the top down, but psychological safety is really local.

It's at the team level. So even if this is not something that like you're the senior leaders of your organization are necessarily modeling, you can still build psychological safety on your own team. Which is cool.

Mike: Yeah, you don't have to,~ I,~ I can't remember what, I think I read this in,~ um,~ Good to Great and they talked about like, even if your big organization is not necessarily doing this, you can, ~you know, your, ~your team can have a credo and that kind of stuff. And I think I did that for the front desk and the double tree.

I was like, what's our mission? They're like, what? I was like, okay, go with it. 

Kristen: Yeah, I'm all for that. I think breaking that down to

Mike: Yeah. And ~you know, ~ideally if you're doing that,~ the,~ the bigger organization will eventually take notice. ~Of, oh, it's the, uh, litter robot. It's pretty quiet.~

Kristen: ~Yeah. I think that'll get filtered out.~

Mike: ~Okay. Yeah.~ So even though your~ you know, ~big organization's, not necessarily like well organized or psychologically safe you, you can absolutely do that with a smaller team and eventually influence,~ you know, ~the bigger, the whole. Probably not easy, but you can do it for sure.

Kristen: For sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. You like, you still have some control, at least within your own team. ~ Um, ~So yeah, so moving into as a leader, like how do you know if your team has psychological safety? ~Um, ~So ~Well,~

Mike: Oh, they'll tell you if they don't or if

Kristen: Well, not necessarily,

Mike: you don't, they won't tell you.

Kristen: want. It's actually, yeah, it's actually kind of the opposite.

~Um, ~Yeah, so Amy, if you wanna ~kind of ~do this more formally, and she has this on our website too, there's actually like ~a, ~a more formal inventory,~ but,~ but basically there's ~like ~seven questions ~to. So~ that you can survey your team about. ~So, ~And these are like each rated on a scale. So the seven are if you make a mistake on this team, it's not held against you.

Members are able to bring up problems and tough issues. People sometimes it accept others for being different~ I, ~I don't know why that's the language, but that's what ~I, ~I saw it was.~ Um,~ it's safe to take a risk on this team. It isn't difficult to ask others for help. No one would deliberately act in a way that undermines my efforts. And ~my, ~my unique skills and talents are valued and utilized by this team. So this is something where if you have psychological safety, your team is gonna score pretty high on these. ~Um, ~And these are only in the context of the team when you're actually giving them these

Mike: questions.

Kristen: ~Um, ~So that's one indicator is you can actually ~like ~survey your team, but I wanted to give some signs as well, some indicators of low psychological safety and then we'll do some indicators of high psychological safety also.

So signs of low psychological safety for a particular team. So prevailing silence in meetings.~ Like if there're,~ If there's a trend where ~you're, ~you're the only one I'm talking in your meetings and people really aren't speaking up at all, that is a sign.~ Um, ~A culture of blame or people do a lot of scapegoating and blaming each other for things.

Lack of feedback from team members. A general like fear of failure, lack of risk taking, passive aggressive behavior. Like groupthink when it comes to decision making,~ kind of ~excessively formal communication used. ~So, um, ~instead of like it having a more like in casual, like personal tone to it, sometimes within the team.~ Um,~

Mike: ~some Ms. Bates.~

~out. You can cut that out. That's all right. I'll come for you eventually. I~

Kristen: ~don't, we don't want any name, any names. That's alright. I don't care. Um,~

Mike: ~you sucked.~

Kristen: ~Talk~

Mike: ~about not having psychological safety. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway.~

Kristen: Um, surface level compliance. So people are just checking the boxes, they're completing the process. Yeah.

Mike: Yeah.

Kristen: And not doing anything else. Yeah. There's no like initiative happening. Yeah. And high turnover.

Mike: Well, that's what you get when you lead with compliance and control.

Kristen: Mm-hmm.

Mike: You would get box checkers. 

Kristen: Yep. Yeah.

For sure.

Yeah.

Mike: That's a, yeah. I just have such a low tolerance for that. It's so uninspired.

Kristen: Yeah. Well, yeah, people need motivation to go above and beyond, and their team is a big part of it, 

Mike: I think this whole like above and beyond, I mean it's just like~ ~create an environment where people enjoy being there.

They enjoy working together. They know that big mission and people will just. Do stuff, ~you know, ~like you don't have to like drive people.

Kristen: Yeah. I

Mike: You shouldn't have to, I don't think,

Kristen: Can refer back to our episode on motivation, A more in depth overview of that

Mike: or how to win Friends and Influence people. 

Kristen: Yeah, that too. Just, yep. recent one.

Mike: ~~Be,~~~ ~Be ~hardy and, uh, be lavish and so~ hearty in your, a approbations and lavish in your praise. 

Kristen: ~Yep.~

So the inverse of this signs that you have high psychological safety on your team. ~Um, ~Team members challenge ideas without fear. The team members speak in roughly the same proportion. If you look at like how much everybody is speaking in the context of each meeting. Obviously, like there's always gonna be some people who have a tendency to speak up more and some people who speak less, but everybody on the team is contributing in when there is high psychological safety.

So,~ um, ~mistakes are admitted and discussed openly. Questions are asked freely and openly. People given and receive feedback constructively. Divergent thinking. So like new ideas, like different, like out of the box ideas are, it's really celebrated and explored. Members know each other personally and professionally.

It doesn't mean everybody has to go to happy hour together every single day, but they, but they, they kind of know something about like what's going on in each other's lives. It's not like just a purely work relationship.

And members freely offer and request help from others. So those are all signs that you have high psychological safety. And then that ~kind of~ brings us to ~like~ the last part of this,~ um,~ which is how do you actually create it within your team? So Amy Edmondson gives three tools. All starting with m, messaging, modeling, and mentoring.

So messaging is like, leaders are making statements that highlight the ~challenge of the~ challenges of the situation being faced.

Modeling is that you're being a good role model for asking good questions, listening intently and acknowledging that it's okay to not know all the answers. Mentoring, you're giving people feedback on their impact and on how well they invite and respond to others' input. So ~you're, ~you're encouraging these actual behaviors within the team that way, and you're also working to minimize the negative consequences anybody on the team suffers from speaking up, which is super important. What you tolerate right matters. So some kind of more specific things you can do to help encourage this, admit when you're unsure about something and kind of normalize, I don't know,~ starting,~ starting with you.

Mike: you. Yeah.

Kristen: Share the things that you're learning, like the mistake you've made, and what learning process you're going through so

Mike: So I don't have to put on airs and act like I know everything.

Kristen: Yeah, that's, yeah.

Mike: How interesting.

Kristen: Yeah, I know. It's the opposite of how. Many of us have been,

Mike: I 

Kristen: taught, I still, 

Mike: I, still regularly have people comment on that. They're like, oh, I can't believe you actually said, I don't know.

I was like, is that not a like people?

Kristen: Yeah, no, a lot

Mike: You think you're fooling people.

Kristen: There's a lot of conditioning. Yeah.

Mike: You think you're fooling people by acting like you have all the answers. You are not

Kristen: Yep. Yeah, and I totally get it. It's also ~like. ~There's a certain point in your, ~you know, ~we talked about this with What Got You Here, Won't Get You There, and ~kind of ~some other stuff like earlier in your career when it's all about like your knowledge and your technical competence, your knowing as much as possible is like often how you're rewarded or what's expected of you.

But when you're a leader it's totally different. ~ Um. ~Yeah. And then asking questions like, what's something we're not talking about that we should be?

Or ~like, what, ~what can we learn from this? Things like that, like really engaging, really inviting conversation and engaging discussion based on the questions you asked.

Inviting quieter voices to share their input. ~Um, ~Which hopefully once you get to a good point of psychological safety, people are doing this more automatically. But you will probably need to prompt it in the beginning and also calmly,~ um,~ redirect from the people who tend to dominate the room, right? So there, there's an art to that.

~Um, ~When somebody takes a risk or speaks up, thank them. Even if you don't agree with that, but you can say something like,~ like,~ thank you so much for bringing that to me. I know that must've been really hard to bring up, or that must've been difficult to raise in front of the group. Thank you for your candor.

Mike: Hmm ~ . ~It reminds me of Rebs where she's like, thank you for having the,~ you know, ~when people would give her negative feedback. She's ~like, ~thank you ~for, ~for having the confidence to ~like, ~tell me that, or something like that.

Kristen: Yep. For sure. Yeah. This is our interview with Rebecca Yang that Mike is referencing.

Mike: Rebs.,~ ~

Kristen: ~We also~ 

Mike: The one and only. Yes. Rebs.

Kristen: Um, Probably 

Mike: doesn't go by that at work. No. Yeah. No. You don't know. You don't know. ~Maybe,~

Kristen: ~mean ~Maybe, who knows? Yeah.

Mike: Her team probably feels psychologically safe.

Kristen: Yeah, for sure.~ Um, ~Also like creating shared language through team agreements. This is something that,~ um,~ is a big part of like the team coaching education I did last year where ~a ~a, a big part of it is like ~creating, you know, ~creating a whole team charter.

But part of that is figuring out like what is your agreements going in? Like, how do you engage with each other so you can have things in there that create like shared language around psychological safety. So things like assume good intent. And~ like ~encourage everyone in the room to speak. ~You know, ~Like it, it can be, it's created by the team, but it's a really powerful tool.

And then you start your meetings with a reminder of what's in that set of agreements that you determined. 

Mike: The sun always shines on Benfold.

Kristen: Yeah, that's definitely

Mike: Shared language is important. Shared language. Yeah. Yeah. I think they, they reference that in successful couples as well. They'll have their own language. They'll have a whole litany of inside jokes. Mm-hmm. You know ~that ~that is their. Their secret little space.

Kristen: ~We, ~We have no shared language whatsoever. We have a lot of

Mike: share. We have so much share. The incorrect cat is the

Kristen: So we're It's constantly evolving. Yeah. Yes,

Mike: Well, that is the correct cat ~for, ~for what's going on right there.

Kristen: Beezus is lounging and posing on the couch right now. It's a lot, man.

She's

Mike: so, the cat's really like kind.

Our cat is so laid back, she's kind of bullying. For those of us that are busy, it's ~like, ~

Kristen: started bullying

You're trying to get things done and then you just look at her and you're like, ~this is, ~this is not cool.

Mike: Not cool, man. Like

Kristen: She's just so relaxed. 

Mike: She could not be more like at ease.

She's had like three hard days in her life. 

Kristen: Yeah. And they involve the vet. They All of 'em. All of

Mike: All of them. Yeah, 

Kristen: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. Well,~ that's the, ~that's the, you're supposed to spoil cats.

Yeah. 

Kristen: Yeah. They're adequately compensated for the user experience they provide.

Yeah. 

Mike: Competitively

Kristen: Competitively. Competitively compensated.

Mike: Yeah. I don't know if we can adequately compensate them for this experience.

I don't have enough money for that.

Kristen: True.

Mike: True. Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah.

~Um, ~So yeah, so that's, oh yeah, there's one more final one for things you can do. Check, just basically check yourself when somebody challenges your thinking. ~Um, ~And you might catch yourself feeling defensive, like feeling your, like a nervous system response. Just ~kind of ~check yourself, take a breath and try to get curious about what they're saying. ~ So, ~So yeah, ~that's the, ~that's the breakdown. I will also include a few links to resources in the show notes if you want to dig more into this. ~Um, ~As well as Amy Edmondson's book, The Fearless Organization, which gets into this a lot as well.

Mike: I'll check that out. You know, who doesn't have psychological safety? The ISB? Is anybody watching Andor. Right. The ISB, the, like ~the, ~the secret organization, they do not have psychological safety. Everything they do and say could get them, I don't know, exiled, killed, like shamed. Yeah, right. Like, you

Kristen: Stakes are very high. Are

Mike: The stakes are very high. The stakes are very high. ~You know, ~anything you say can and will be used against you and not even in a court of law, you know?

So,~ These are, ~These are great ~hmm. ~Things to think about when creating your team. You'll have happier people too, ~you know, ~and people want to contribute. ~Mm-hmm. ~They don't wanna just punch a clock. They want to be part of something bigger. They want to be part of something that,~ um, you know, ~feels good.

Yeah. Does 

Kristen: Feel valued and they

Mike: Feel valued. They wanna feel like what they're doing matters to even just the people around them. ~You know, ~Not everybody really needs to like have some. ~You know, ~like you don't have to ~walk,~ work for Doctors Without Borders to feel like you're making a difference in the world.

Kristen: Absolutely.

Mike: ~You know, ~I was just saying save one person, save everyone. I. Something like that. I don't know. Save the cheerleader, save the World.

Kristen: What? Some

Oh, okay.

Mike: okay.

Kristen: She's, I never watched that.

Mike: You never watch,~ uh,~ the first until the writer strike. It was so good. It was one of the best shows ever. And then the writer strike ~kind of ~killed

Kristen: Yeah, that's what I always heard.

Mike: Yeah. Save the cheerleader, save the world. Okay. ~Well ~thank you.

Kristen: Well,

Mike: for joining us. Yes. On this pistachio ice cream based

Kristen: ~on this, ~On this that note, we're gonna watch three hours of 

Mike: Oh god. We are. Yes, we are.

Kristen: Mike may or may not. DoorDash

Mike: pistachio. No, I'm, I'm, I'm, I've had enough potatoes for the day. Very potato heavy day.

Kristen: Oh, okay. Okay. All right.~ Uh, ~Well yeah. Thank you guys. Thank you guys for listening and we will catch you next time.

Mike: Thank you so much. The Love and Leadership Podcast is produced and co-hosted by me, Kristen Brun Sharkey and co-hosted by Mike Sharkey. Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. We can't stress enough just how much these reviews help. You can follow us on LinkedIn under Kristen Brun Sharkey and Michael Sharkey, and on Instagram as loveleaderpod.

Kristen: You can also find more information on our website, loveandleadershippod.com. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you again next week.